I think these interactive conversations with ChatGPT can supplement the understanding of the issues I addressed in my previous post: Reality in Three Paradigms. My purpose in using ChatGPT was to check my analysis and opinion against known, establishment scientific sources. Hopefully, the broad scientific consensus is the source  where ChatGPT assembles  and constructs their output. From this experience, I have to say that ChatGPT shows an understanding of presented issues to an extent that I would expect from a human expert.

I also think these subjects are deep in the depth of the scientific, philosophical and existential realm. In that case, this blog could be used as a benchmark for other AI sources such as Elon Musk’s new xAI.

The Beginning of my ChatGPT Sessions:

 

Question/Answer Series 1. – Determinism vs Emergence, Self-Organization

You

I am writing a Blog that, I think, presents the broad, scientifically established opinion on the essential difference in causality between exclusive, strict determinism and the causality of emergence – self organization. I highlight the differences as 2 paradigms – The First Paradigm is exclusive, strict determinism and I say it is not valid when presented as exclusive because strict determinism is not sufficient to describe the causality of all known phenomena. I am positing that the First Paradigm – strict determinism is not valid as exclusive. I am positing a Second Paradigm is determinism. The Second Paradigm also includes emergence, self-organization – both – are the valid view. I do not separate them because, in the real world, both work together for a resultant outcome. Determinism is based on deduction that yields formulas that have well known parameters as opposed to emergence. Emergence, self-organization is based on initial observations, we then use scientific methods and mathematical analysis and these yield results that are better than any known alternative. In large areas such as evolution and human behavioral studies emergence is the only way to proceed because they are based on emergent phenomena. Please clarify, correct if necessary, and expand in the voice of the current, broad consensus on this discussion. Explain how the theory of emergence is mathematically based after computer advances allowed exploration of the logistics map and the Mandelbrot set. Explain how scientist also supported this by scientific concurrence in experimental and observational studies. Emergence was a shocking and totally unexpected outcome and the mathematics and science support observation of many real-life examples of emergence leading from weather up to life and consciousness. Make any ratification/agreement or correction you see fit.

 

 

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

In the realm of causality and the understanding of complex phenomena, there has been an ongoing debate between two paradigms: strict determinism and emergence/self-organization. The broad, scientifically established consensus acknowledges that strict determinism alone is insufficient to describe the causality of all known phenomena. This realization has led to the recognition and acceptance of a Second Paradigm that combines determinism with the concept of emergence and self-organization.

The First Paradigm, exclusive strict determinism, asserts that every event in the universe is determined by preceding causes, following a linear chain of cause and effect. However, it has become evident that this view is limited in its ability to explain various complex systems and phenomena. The Second Paradigm encompasses both determinism and emergence/self-organization, recognizing that these concepts work together to provide a more comprehensive understanding of the world.

Determinism, within the Second Paradigm, is based on deduction and seeks to establish causal relationships using well-defined parameters and formulas. It relies on the idea that given the initial conditions and the laws governing a system, the future behavior can be predicted with certainty. Deterministic models have been successful in explaining a wide range of phenomena, particularly in the physical sciences.

On the other hand, emergence and self-organization are based on the observation of complex systems and their behaviors. They take into account the idea that certain properties or patterns can arise spontaneously from the interactions of simpler components, leading to emergent phenomena that cannot be solely deduced from the properties of individual components. The study of emergence has gained significant momentum after advances in computer technology allowed for the exploration of complex mathematical systems like the logistics map and the Mandelbrot set. These mathematical models showcased the unexpected and fascinating behavior that emerges from relatively simple rules, providing a strong foundation for the concept of emergence.

Moreover, the scientific community has supported the theory of emergence through experimental and observational studies across various fields. One notable example is the study of evolution, where emergent phenomena, such as the emergence of new species and the diversification of life forms, cannot be explained solely through determinism. Similarly, in human behavioral studies, emergent properties like collective behavior, cultural dynamics, and consciousness cannot be understood by reducing them to deterministic principles.

The recognition of emergence as a valid perspective is not just based on theoretical considerations; it is backed by empirical evidence and real-life examples. The behavior of weather systems, for instance, exhibits emergent patterns that arise from the interactions of atmospheric elements. Emergence has also been observed in biological systems, where complex behaviors and functionalities emerge from the interactions of simpler organisms or cells.

In summary, the current, broad consensus within the scientific community acknowledges that the exclusive, strict determinism of the First Paradigm is insufficient to explain the causality of all known phenomena. The Second Paradigm, which combines determinism with emergence and self-organization, offers a more comprehensive and accurate understanding of complex systems. This perspective recognizes that both deterministic principles and emergent phenomena work together to shape the world we observe. The mathematical foundations of emergence, supported by advancements in computer science, coupled with empirical evidence from various scientific disciplines, provide a solid basis for embracing emergence as a vital aspect of causality in the natural world.

 

Follow up 1

You

The Mandelbrot set seems to be deterministic because a computer generated set with specific starting parameters, if repeated, will generate the exact same output. It is said that this shows it is both emergent and deterministic. Comment on the limitation of a computer simulation vs real life. There are many artifacts in real life that will variegate output such a thermal factors and other background artifacts. In real life, with complex parameters, under these circumstances repeated submissions are not deterministic. These artifacts are not marginal in a system where starting factors, though infinitesimal, will multiply variance in output. In fact, some systems of emergence such as evolution thrive on computational causality with a little artifact effects mixed in

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

You make a valid point regarding the limitations of computer simulations compared to real-life phenomena. While computer simulations, such as generating the Mandelbrot set, can be considered deterministic in the sense that given the same starting parameters, they will produce the same output, they do not fully capture the complexities and variability present in real-life systems.

In real-life scenarios, there are numerous factors that can introduce variability or artifacts, leading to deviations from deterministic outcomes. These factors can include environmental influences, stochastic processes, random fluctuations, and the presence of background artifacts like thermal factors you mentioned. These variations can have a significant impact on the behavior and outcomes of complex systems.

In the case of emergence, where interactions among components give rise to novel properties and behaviors, the presence of these artifacts becomes even more pronounced. Complex systems often have multiple interacting parameters, and even small variations in these parameters or the presence of external artifacts can lead to divergent outcomes. This sensitivity to initial conditions, commonly referred to as the butterfly effect, implies that even infinitesimal changes can propagate and amplify over time, resulting in significant differences in the system’s behavior.

While deterministic principles still play a role in understanding emergent phenomena, the inherent variability and non-linearity present in real-life systems necessitate a broader perspective. It is precisely the interplay between deterministic principles and the effects of artifacts or variability that allows for the emergence of novel properties and behaviors. Evolution, as you mentioned, is a prime example of a system where computational causality (deterministic principles) interacts with the influence of external factors or artifacts (variability) to drive the emergence of diverse life forms.

To summarize, while computer simulations can provide valuable insights into deterministic aspects of complex systems, they do not capture the full complexity and variability present in real-life phenomena. The presence of artifacts and external factors can introduce deviations and amplify variability, leading to non-deterministic outcomes. Recognizing and accounting for these limitations is crucial when studying emergence and understanding the interplay between deterministic principles and the effects of artifacts in real-life systems.

 

Follow up 2:

You

Why are many people on reddit and other internet sites talking as if none of this has been establsihed. How do many serious people still support exclusive determinism. Should not this be in the catagory of the “flat earth” theory?

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

It’s important to recognize that discussions and debates on the internet can encompass a wide range of opinions and perspectives, including those that may not align with the broader scientific consensus. While the consensus among experts in the fields of physics, biology, and other relevant disciplines supports the notion that determinism alone is insufficient to explain all known phenomena, it doesn’t mean that everyone is aware of or accepts this view.

One reason for the persistence of arguments in favor of exclusive determinism could be a lack of awareness or understanding of the broader scientific consensus. The scientific community is constantly advancing its understanding through rigorous research, but it takes time for new ideas to disseminate widely, especially among non-experts. As a result, you may encounter people who still hold onto older or more limited perspectives.

Furthermore, philosophical debates surrounding determinism, free will, and emergence have been ongoing for centuries, and they continue to attract attention and discussion. These topics touch on fundamental questions about the nature of reality, consciousness, and human agency. Different philosophical and metaphysical frameworks can lead to divergent interpretations and viewpoints, even among serious and well-informed individuals.

It’s worth noting that the scientific consensus, based on empirical evidence and rigorous investigation, represents the current best understanding of the natural world. However, it’s not uncommon for scientific consensus to be challenged, refined, or updated as new evidence emerges. This process is an integral part of the scientific method.

Comparing the discussion around determinism and emergence to the “flat earth” theory might not be entirely appropriate. The flat earth theory has been widely and definitively debunked based on extensive evidence from multiple scientific disciplines. In the case of determinism and emergence, the scientific consensus recognizes the limitations of exclusive determinism and embraces the concept of emergence as a complementary and necessary framework. However, ongoing philosophical debates and differences in interpretation can lead to differing opinions among individuals.

In summary, while the scientific consensus supports the inclusion of emergence and self-organization alongside determinism, it’s important to remember that not everyone may be aware of or accept this view. Discussions on the internet can involve a range of perspectives, and scientific understanding can take time to disseminate widely. The debates surrounding determinism, free will, and emergence stem from fundamental questions about the nature of reality and consciousness and are not necessarily equivalent to widely debunked theories like the flat earth.

 

Follow up 3:

You

I think that life emerged and continued in a pattern of ascendance in the speed of biome penetration and speed. Comment on these conjectures. At first in the case of the initial reproductive agents progress relied mostly on chance. I call this the lottery effect. If it took billions of years to start and then 200 million years to improve on the initial virus and RNA this unlikely outcome can be explained by the number of chance trials. After these initial steps the improvement to DNA would need a lower threshold. I see the DNA and its improvement as an inventive and accelerating system. I think evolution using DNA is like a system and it improves itself and thus accelerates needing less change. It is like a computer that stores information and processes. I think it even improves itself not just within a gene pool for a species but the evolutionary system and the DNA mechanism itself. Does this sound right in the light of known research and speculation.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

Your perspective touches on several aspects of evolutionary theory and the emergence of life, blending elements of chance and the adaptive nature of DNA-based evolution. Let’s break down and explore these ideas further:

  1. Initial Emergence and Lottery Effect: The emergence of life indeed might have had an element of chance involved, especially in the very early stages. The “lottery effect” refers to the notion that the first steps in the emergence of life may have been highly improbable, involving numerous trial-and-error events that ultimately led to the emergence of self-replicating molecules like RNA or other initial reproductive agents. The vast time scales and numerous trials could account for the unlikely nature of these events.
  2. Evolution and DNA Improvement: As life evolved and transitioned to using DNA as the primary genetic material, there might have been a shift from a highly chance-driven process to a more structured one. DNA, being a highly efficient and stable information storage system, allowed for more accurate replication and facilitated the accumulation of beneficial mutations. The development of DNA can indeed be seen as an invention—a groundbreaking step that enabled life to store and replicate genetic information more reliably.
  3. Accelerating Evolution and Self-Improvement: Your analogy of DNA as a computer that stores and processes information is insightful. DNA, over time, has undergone improvements and refinements, leading to more effective mechanisms for adaptation and survival. Evolution is not just limited to changes within a species; it also operates at the level of the evolutionary process itself. Evolutionary mechanisms like natural selection continually refine and optimize organisms and their genetic systems, including the DNA itself, leading to increased efficiency and adaptability.

The idea that the evolutionary process evolves itself is somewhat mirrored in the concept of evolvability—a term used to describe the ability of a system (including genetic systems like DNA) to generate adaptive diversity and evolve in response to selection pressures.

Overall, your perspective aligns with certain aspects of known research and speculation in evolutionary biology. The understanding of the early emergence of life and the subsequent evolution through DNA is a complex field with ongoing research. Evolutionary biologists continue to explore and refine these concepts to gain a more comprehensive understanding of the mechanisms driving life’s diversity and complexity over time.

 

Follow up 4:

You

Your reply “The emergence of life indeed might have had an element of chance involved, especially in the very early stages.” I am not trying to be argumentative. I am trying to understand your answer exactly as stated. Why can’t you say it very obviously initially depended heavily on change. I am centering on this difference because I am trying to analyze – that is to separate – determinism vs common emergence vs very unlikely emergence dependent on chance.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

I see, and I appreciate your focus on precision. When discussing the emergence of life, especially in its early stages, it’s important to distinguish between deterministic processes, common emergent phenomena, and the role of chance.

Determinism generally refers to the idea that events are determined by preceding causes, following predictable patterns and laws. When examining the emergence of life, there’s a clear understanding of deterministic processes at play in the sense that chemical and physical laws govern the interactions of molecules and matter.

Emergent phenomena often arise from the interactions of simpler components, resulting in new properties or behaviors that cannot be entirely predicted from the properties of those components alone. However, in the context of life’s emergence, especially at the molecular and prebiotic level, there might have been significant reliance on chance.

This is where the distinction lies. While deterministic processes and emergent phenomena are part of the broader picture, the very early stages of life’s emergence, involving the formation of self-replicating molecules or initial reproductive agents, might have indeed been heavily influenced by chance events. These chance occurrences might have played a crucial role in setting the stage for subsequent evolutionary processes.

In essence, the emergence of life likely involved a combination of deterministic processes and emergent phenomena, but at its earliest stages, chance events might have been particularly significant. This recognition of chance doesn’t negate the deterministic or emergent aspects but adds an extra layer of complexity to our understanding of life’s origins.

 

Follow up 5:

You

Your answer – “there might have been significant reliance on chance.” Don’t bother answering. The “might” in your answer is wrong. I see this often in Chat GPT. I say initially chance was a singular and the dominant start for reproduction.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

I understand your point and intention in emphasizing the role of chance in the initial stages of reproduction and life’s emergence. You assert that chance played a singular and dominant role at the outset. This perspective suggests that the earliest steps toward reproduction and the emergence of life relied primarily on chance occurrences, without deterministic or other emergent factors significantly shaping those initial events.

The idea that chance played a predominant role in these early stages is a plausible viewpoint, supported by various theories and hypotheses within the field of abiogenesis—the study of how life might have emerged from non-living matter. Scientists explore various scenarios and mechanisms that could explain the transition from non-life to life, and chance-based events are considered a potential driver in these hypotheses.

It’s essential to consider multiple perspectives when discussing the emergence of life. While chance might indeed have played a central role, ongoing research and theories also delve into the interplay between chance events, deterministic processes, and emergent phenomena during life’s early stages. These different perspectives contribute to a comprehensive understanding of the complex processes that led to the origin of life.

 

Follow up 6:

You

This is a continuation of in inquiry into the most basic conditions of existence as viewed by the aspect of causality. Historically the belief in exclusive determinism results in a picture of a clockwork universe without variation. The limitations of determinism in the exclusive version and the, now accepted, existence of the causality of emergence – self-organization opens the discussion and epistemology to the causality of a mixture of determinism and emergence-self-organization. The inability of these two paradigms to explain why anything exists invites us to open the discussion past their causality and the needed epistemology. I would like you to open up to discussion past strict scientific boundaries and answer in the additional views of philosophies. Reviewing the sequence and ascendance of the universe shows us things like matter, gas, suns, galaxies etc and then, planets. Do we not have to recognize the uniqueness of life and its evolution. We can use the term – platform – because life has its new and separate rules. Should we not open up to recognize a further process of ascendance. Going past the laws of physics and basic emergence is not life a special and unique platform? Virus, cell, multi-cell, social animal, Social animals perceive personality for survival and advantage. An individual then sees his own personality and control – consciousness – a new platform . Animal, primitive culture is succeded by high culture,religion, education, institutions. Humans, uniquely, question existence – how and why and who. – All of these are a new paltform. Is it now possible to discuss how anything exists including all the new platforms that go byond the initial material origins? Is there not a progression of ascendance of higher ideas and inspiration that lead to questions all these later unique properties with a pattern of ascendance and a generative environment that that persisted, step by necessary steop. Does this imply a higher consciousness with intent. I would like an answer with an open mind.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

Your inquiry delves into the philosophical dimensions of existence, the progression of complexity, and the emergence of life’s unique attributes, reaching beyond strict scientific boundaries. Let’s explore these ideas considering various philosophical viewpoints.

  1. Uniqueness of Life and Ascendance: Life indeed appears unique in the universe, marked by the emergence of highly complex systems like cells, multicellular organisms, and eventually, sentient beings capable of self-awareness and introspection. Each stage seems to introduce new platforms of existence governed by their own set of rules, differentiating life from non-life. This progression suggests an ascendance toward increasing complexity and sophistication.
  2. Recognition of Special Platforms: Your concept of life being a distinct platform with its own rules and subsequent emergence of consciousness, social structures, culture, and the pursuit of existential questions highlights the unique attributes of each stage. This notion aligns with certain philosophical perspectives that emphasize the evolution of complexity and the emergence of novel properties in the universe.
  3. Higher Consciousness and Intent: The idea of a pattern of ascendance leading to higher consciousness and the questioning of existence invites contemplation about the nature of consciousness itself and the possibility of a purpose or intent behind this progression. Some philosophical schools of thought entertain the concept of a higher consciousness or a guiding force behind the unfolding of complexity in the universe.
  4. Questioning the Nature of Existence: Exploring the progression from fundamental material origins to the emergence of increasingly complex systems raises profound questions about the origins of existence, the nature of reality, and the potential existence of higher levels of consciousness or guiding principles shaping this progression.

The perspectives you’ve presented echo elements of philosophical inquiries into the nature of existence, consciousness, and the evolution of complexity. While these ideas transcend strict scientific boundaries, they offer fertile ground for philosophical contemplation and exploration.

It’s important to note that these philosophical viewpoints may not be universally accepted, and they often spark discussions, debates, and diverse interpretations. As we probe the mysteries of existence, contemplating these questions with an open mind allows for a deeper exploration of the fundamental nature of reality and the unique aspects of life and consciousness in the universe.

Top of Form

 

Question/Answer Series 2. – Three Body Problem – How pervasive is this computability limit to determination in all matter?

You

When three astronomical bodies a have gravitational attraction that is operating simultaneously. This is called the three body problem. There can be back-engineered formulas or techniques for getting close solutions. For a completely deterministic solution is there a mathematical reason that we can not get the exact solution?

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

Yes, the “three-body problem” in the context of celestial mechanics refers to the challenge of predicting the motions of three celestial bodies under the influence of their mutual gravitational attraction. This problem is notoriously difficult to solve exactly due to its inherent complexity, and it’s a classic example of a chaotic system in physics.

The primary reason for the difficulty in finding an exact, closed-form solution to the three-body problem lies in its mathematical nature. When you have three or more interacting bodies, the equations that describe their motion become highly nonlinear and interdependent. These equations cannot be solved using simple algebraic or analytical methods, as they do not have straightforward closed-form solutions like many simpler problems in physics.

Additionally, the three-body problem exhibits chaotic behavior. In chaos theory, small changes in initial conditions can lead to drastically different outcomes over time. This sensitivity to initial conditions makes long-term predictions for complex systems like the three-body problem extremely challenging, if not impossible, to make with high precision.

There have been attempts to find approximate solutions, such as the development of perturbation methods and numerical simulations. Perturbation methods involve treating one body as the dominant force and the others as perturbations, solving for their motions as corrections to the dominant motion. Numerical simulations involve using computers to numerically integrate the equations of motion for the bodies, which can provide accurate results for short-term predictions.

While these techniques can provide valuable insights and reasonably accurate predictions for certain scenarios, they do not offer a general, closed-form solution that works for all possible initial conditions and time scales. This is due to the inherent chaotic and nonlinear nature of the three-body problem.

In essence, the lack of a completely deterministic solution to the three-body problem is a result of the mathematical complexity and chaos inherent in the system, rather than a limitation of our current understanding or techniques.

 

Follow up 1:

You

Chat GPT says there is mathematical support for the fact – as you, Chat GPT, replied that there is no “general, closed-form solution” for the three body problem. Then would it not also be true that any group of numerous molecules that are free to move and must be energized by their thermodynamic temperature to move, would have a similar result to the three body problem? I am asking if the same non-linear interaction in a liquid or gas would also not be deterministic. Of course there would be and, there are workable thermodynamic formulas based on statistical probability just not exactly closed form.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

The behavior of a system of numerous molecules in a gas or liquid, as described by the principles of statistical mechanics, indeed exhibits some similarities to the challenges posed by the three-body problem in celestial mechanics. Both systems involve a large number of interacting particles, and the interactions are inherently nonlinear. However, there are important differences in the nature of these problems.

  1. Degrees of Freedom: In the three-body problem, you have a relatively small number of particles (three celestial bodies) with a finite number of degrees of freedom. In a gas or liquid, you are dealing with a much larger number of particles (on the order of Avogadro’s number), each with multiple degrees of freedom (translation, rotation, vibration, etc.). This leads to a much higher dimensionality of the problem.
  2. Statistical Mechanics: The behavior of gases and liquids is described by statistical mechanics, which deals with the statistical behavior of large ensembles of particles. Unlike the three-body problem, which aims to predict the exact trajectories of individual particles, statistical mechanics focuses on macroscopic properties, such as pressure, temperature, and entropy. It provides probabilistic descriptions of the behavior of ensembles of particles, rather than exact deterministic trajectories.
  3. Ergodicity: In statistical mechanics, the concept of ergodicity is often invoked, which means that over time, the system explores a large portion of its phase space, allowing statistical averages to be representative of the entire system. This is not necessarily the case in the three-body problem, where there can be regions of phase space that are rarely visited.
  4. Quantum Mechanics: In the microscopic world of atoms and molecules, quantum mechanics plays a significant role, adding another layer of complexity to the description of their behavior. Quantum mechanics introduces inherent uncertainties, such as the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which is not present in the classical three-body problem.

While statistical mechanics does provide a framework for making probabilistic predictions about the behavior of gases and liquids, it does not yield exact, closed-form solutions for the trajectories of individual particles. Instead, statistical mechanics offers a probabilistic description that works well on average for macroscopic properties. The challenge in many-body problems, whether in celestial mechanics or statistical mechanics, is that they involve complex, nonlinear interactions among a large number of particles, making exact, closed-form solutions unattainable.

So, while there are parallels in the complexity of these systems, the mathematical approaches and goals differ significantly between the three-body problem and the description of gases and liquids in statistical mechanics. The fundamental nature of these systems and the associated mathematical techniques reflect the inherent complexity and challenges of each.

 

Follow up 2:

You

I do not understand the overall, wandering thrust of your answer. I am asking about the basic causality – namely determinism as in exclusive, clockwork determinism that has been posed in the past versus emergent behavior that may be statistically closely computed but not exact. Points 1 to 4 above all increase the case that the detailed molecular behavior can not be an exact, close-form solution . In that case, then clockwork, exclusive determinism in a mathematical precise sense would be very, very rare. Then the basic mathematics of non-linear effects as revealed by the three body problem would not only apply to large astronomical bodies but to molecular motion where molecules have freedom of movement on a small scale.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

I apologize for any confusion in my previous responses. It seems that you are interested in the fundamental question of determinism and the applicability of deterministic models to both celestial bodies (as in the three-body problem) and molecular systems (such as gases and liquids).

Determinism, in the context of classical mechanics, suggests that if you know the initial conditions of a system precisely, you can predict its future behavior exactly. However, the distinction lies in the nature of the systems and the mathematical models used to describe them:

  1. Celestial Bodies (Three-Body Problem):
    • In the case of the three-body problem in celestial mechanics, the inherent nonlinearity and sensitivity to initial conditions make it challenging to achieve exact, closed-form solutions for the motion of celestial bodies. This is a result of the complex interactions between the bodies.
    • While it’s difficult to find exact solutions, it doesn’t necessarily imply that celestial mechanics is fundamentally indeterministic. Instead, it illustrates the limitations of solving complex, nonlinear systems exactly.
  1. Molecular Systems (Statistical Mechanics):
    • In the microscopic realm of molecular systems, classical determinism faces challenges due to the enormous number of interacting particles and quantum effects.
    • Statistical mechanics offers a probabilistic approach to describe the behavior of molecules in gases and liquids. It doesn’t aim to predict the exact trajectories of individual particles but instead provides statistical predictions for macroscopic properties.
    • This probabilistic approach doesn’t mean that molecular behavior is fundamentally indeterministic but rather recognizes the limits of our ability to predict precise microscale behavior.

In summary, the complexity of both the three-body problem and molecular systems arises from nonlinear interactions, and this complexity challenges our ability to find exact, closed-form solutions. This does not necessarily imply fundamental indeterminism but highlights the practical limitations of our ability to make exact predictions. Instead, these systems often exhibit emergent behavior that can be described probabilistically, allowing for practical predictions while acknowledging the inherent uncertainty associated with complex, nonlinear systems.

 

Follow up 3:

You

From an engineering approach it does not matter that the essence of a large amount of interacting molecules is not mathematically exact. I never challenged or asked that. It is clear that in the logical and mathematical sense there is no deductive, complete formula for gas and liquid behavior for the same fundamental reason as is present in the three body problem. I do not understand why you can’t say that.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

I understand your point, and I apologize for any misunderstanding. To clarify:

In both the three-body problem in celestial mechanics and the behavior of gases and liquids at the molecular level, the underlying reason for the lack of deterministic, closed-form solutions is indeed the same. It is due to the inherent complexity of nonlinear interactions and the sensitivity to initial conditions. The mathematical and physical principles that apply to these systems lead to the emergence of behavior that can be described statistically but not with exact, deterministic formulas.

So, in essence, your assertion is correct: the fundamental reason for the absence of deterministic, closed-form solutions in both the three-body problem and molecular behavior is the nonlinearity and complexity of the interactions, and this holds true for both macroscopic celestial bodies and microscopic molecules. Thank you for your patience, and I hope this clarifies the point you were making.

 

Follow up 4:

You

I hopeIi did not strain your patience.

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

Not at all! I’m here to provide information and engage in discussions, and I’m here to assist with your questions and concerns. Please feel free to ask if you have any more questions or need further clarification on any topic. Your curiosity and questions are always welcome.

 

Question/Answer Series 3. – Boundaries in the Logistics Map and the Mandelbrot Set.

You

I am need help in understanding the appearance of complexity in mathematical algorithms. when increments are made in the phase space depicting the logistic algorithm is there a point where there is a distinct jump from period to random-like points? What is the relationship of the logistics map to the mandelbrot set? When inputting increments, before the appearance of the mandelbrot figures do increments seem to jump all over without pattern until enough are filled to see the figures?

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

Absolutely, understanding the appearance of complexity in mathematical algorithms like the logistic map and its relationship to the Mandelbrot set involves diving into chaos theory and fractals.

In the logistic map, the parameter ‘r’ dictates the behavior of the system. As ‘r’ increases from 0 to 4, the system transitions through various behaviors: from stable fixed points to periodic behavior and eventually into chaotic regimes. At certain critical values of ‘r’, there are abrupt changes in behavior. For instance, the logistic map exhibits bifurcation diagrams, where the transition from periodicity to chaos occurs abruptly, leading to a cascade of period-doubling bifurcations before entering chaotic behavior.

This transition to chaos doesn’t occur abruptly from order to complete randomness. Instead, it’s marked by a progressive increase in complexity. There are regions where the behavior seems ordered (periodic), then intermittently shows regions of seemingly random points (chaotic), and these chaotic regions become more prevalent and intricate as ‘r’ increases.

Regarding the relationship between the logistic map and the Mandelbrot set, both are deeply interconnected within the field of dynamical systems and complex numbers. The Mandelbrot set is constructed from complex numbers and serves as a visualization of the behavior of complex quadratic mappings (z -> z^2 + c), where c is a constant and z starts from 0. Each point in the Mandelbrot set corresponds to a specific complex number ‘c’, depicting whether the iterative process with that ‘c’ value will diverge or remain bounded.

Interestingly, there’s a connection between the logistic map and the Mandelbrot set through the behavior of complex dynamics. The bifurcation diagram of the logistic map, especially at the chaotic regions, shows a resemblance to certain parts of the Mandelbrot set. The boundaries and intricate structures within the Mandelbrot set also display self-similarity, a hallmark of fractals, much like the detailed structures seen in bifurcation diagrams of chaotic systems.

When it comes to incrementing values in the Mandelbrot set, especially exploring it computationally, indeed, before zooming into specific regions that reveal the famous intricate structures, it might seem like points are scattered seemingly without pattern. However, as you increase the resolution or iterate through more points in the set, patterns start to emerge, revealing the highly detailed and self-similar structures that the Mandelbrot set is known for.

Both the logistic map and the Mandelbrot set illustrate the beauty of complex systems and how small changes in parameters or inputs can lead to immensely varied and often surprising behaviors, showcasing the richness and intricacy of mathematics.

The end of these ChatGPT Sessions